Go ahead Israel destroy Church Buildings (89 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/11/2002 4:55 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 61)  
 
  369.1  
 
To Whom it may Concern,

 

            Do to the perilous times in which we now exist and due to the fact that the glorious Nation of Israel is in a struggle for its very own existence including a vast struggle for the precious defense of life, livelihood, existence and freedom, I as a Christian give my permission to Israel and to the forces thereof to use any means necessary including the destruction of Christian Churches and sites as a means of securing safety for the people of Israel.

 

The Church consists of its members of which I am one. The Church does not consist of relics nor of buildings which do not enter into Heaven and the Kingdom of God, as the people do. 
Churches have never been intended to be a sanctuary for terrorists and criminals, however Jesus Himself is a sanctuary for every known sin. If any person seeks refuge let them seek it in Jesus and not in structures. 
As a Christian I take no offence from Israel in their unintended destruction of Christian property as no offense is given by Israel in their actions.
 

Zechariah 2:8-10 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

 

 

I pray, Jesus, the Lord our God, richly keep you and bless you!!

 

Signed

David Anson Brown

 

www.BasicChristian.org

 

 



David A. Brown
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/12/2002 6:43 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
Source Jerusalem Post www.jpost.com

'With my own body I would stop him'
By Etgar Lefkovitz


(April 12, 2002) - Haim Smadar gave his life to stop a suicide bomber from entering a crowded supermarket. His widow, Shoshana, talks to Etgar Lefkovits about who he was and what he leaves behind. 

He was not supposed to be at the Jerusalem supermarket. 

But when on the morning of March 29 Haim Smadar got a call from the boss of the security company which employed him asking him to work half a day's shift as a guard at Supersol, the 55-year-old father of five agreed. The school where he usually worked as a guard was closed for the Passover holiday so the supermarket job was welcome. He chose the Kiryat Hayovel position over the other options he was offered in Ramot and Abu Gosh because it was in the neighborhood in which he had grown up. It was also to be the site of his death. 

Two hours after Smadar started his shift the usual peace and quiet of Kiryat Hayovel was shattered when an 18-year-old Palestinian girl, wearing a belt of explosives strapped around her waist, approached the market entrance. 

Smadar was immediately suspicious of her. He grabbed her by the arms, and said: "You are not coming in here. You and I will blow up here." 

These were his last words, according to witness accounts confirmed in police testimony, and recalled by Smadar's wife of 25 years, Shoshana, in an interview she gave The Jerusalem Post Magazine during the shiva at their small apartment in the northern Jerusalem neighborhood of Neveh Ya'acov. 

"God gave him the strength to do it. He was sent to the place with a mission," Shoshana says of her husband's sacrifice. 

Seconds after he confronted the terrorist, and apparently tried to wrestle with her and push her away from the store, the suicide bomber set off her bomb killing Smadar, and a 17-year-old shopper, Rachel Levy, a high school pupil who loved photography. 

Smadar's wife thinks that her Arabic-speaking husband's suspicions may have been raised by the exchange of words that he picked up between the terrorist and several Arab women selling mint and vegetables in the commercial square seconds before she entered the supermarket. 

Her husband apparently heard the bomber warning the women to flee. 

"He understood what she was telling them, and this set off alarm bells," Shoshana Smadar says. 

Immediately after the bombing, police said that by struggling with the bomber at the entrance to the store Smadar had undoubtedly averted an even greater disaster from occurring as he prevented her from going deeper into the supermarket, where the impact of the shrapnel-packed explosives inevitably would have been much more lethal. 

Indeed, during subsequent examination of the large bomb, security officials noted that the make up of the explosives was not very different from that of the bomb used by the Hamas suicide attacker in the Passover massacre at Netanya's Park Hotel which killed 27 people. 

Following the bombing at Haifa's Matza Restaurant a few days later - when 16 people lost their lives - Haifa Mayor Amram Mitzna said that had the eatery been protected by a guard - "like the guard in Kiryat Hayovel" - the scope of the attack there too would have been greatly lessened. 

Smadar's bravery and self-sacrifice are perhaps the main consolation helping his family cope with their loss, his wife says. 

"That is our comfort. To know that 20 other families are not going through what we are right now," says Shoshana Smadar. 

Now she is concerned about the daily struggle of looking after her family, particularly how to finance the high cost of treatment and hearing aids for their two deaf children. 

The morning of the attack started out like any other for the family. Tunisian-born Haim Smadar, who immigrated to Israel with his family as a toddler, had worked for the past three years as the security guard for a Ma'alot Dafna school. He was home for the Passover holiday with his wife and some of the children, who range in age from 32 to 15. 

In the morning, Smadar, who frequently lent a helping hand and was known as a Mr. Fix-It, went up to the roof of his building to mend a water leak for his neighbor. 

"He always found time to help others," says Shoshana, a sentiment echoed by the principal of the school where he usually worked. 

At 9:30, Smadar got the call from his boss asking him to work for a few hours. 

As he ate a quick breakfast of hard-boiled eggs on matza, Smadar asked his wife to iron his security guard's uniform, with a sense of urgency and pressure that she thought of only later. 

Before he left at 10:30, Smadar promised his wife he would be back in the afternoon, and reminded her not to forget to buy cigarettes at the kiosk when she went shopping. 

"I'll be back at three and we'll eat then because what with this Passover matza breakfast, I certainly will be hungry by then," he told her. He asked her to prepare his favorite stuffed meats. 

At 2 p.m., Shoshana's daughter told her mother that there had just been a terror attack in Kiryat Hayovel. 

"Where in Kiryat Hayovel?" she asked her heart thumping. 

"At the supermarket," her daughter answered. 

Deep down, Shoshana knew something terrible had happened. 

"I just heard the word Kiryat Hayovel and I began to be nervous. Why, why did they take him from me?" she thought to herself, not daring to tell her children of her own suspicions. 

Shoshana quickly called her husband's employer. 

"Is it Haim? Is it Haim?" she asked after hearing a guard had been killed and another seriously wounded. 

"I don't know, " was all he could honestly reply. 

In the next few hours, while it was still unclear whether Smadar was dead or whether he was the guard who had survived, Shoshana says she thought she would die. 

"The tension was killing me. I begged them, 'Just tell me who it is," she said in tears. 

While Shoshana waiting to hear her husband's fate, news spread of the supermarket guard's act of self sacrifice. Haim's sister, Ilana Avitan, was talking of to her neighbor of the heroic deed committed by the security man, unaware that it was her brother. 

"I said how heroic, how brave this guard was," Avitan recalls. 

Fifteen minutes later, her husband came in to tell her the guard she had been talking about was Haim. 

Nati Smadar, 15, had a special relationship with his father as his youngest child. "A few days ago something strange happened," he says. "Every time we made kiddush I would ask to do the blessing and my father always told me I could do the blessing after he dies. Seder night was the first time he let me read the blessings, as if he knew. He knew he was going to die." 

Consoling themselves with the dozens of phone calls they received last week from well-wishers and grateful people he had saved, Smadar's wife and sister considered how the attack easily could have ended with scores of fatalities. "What would have happened if there had been a different guard stationed at the supermarket who had not have been as alert as he was?" Smadar wondered, as she asked one of the five children to show a visitor the certificate of merit that her husband had received from Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert last year for excellence and diligence in his job. 

Thinking back to a time when she talked with her husband about the suicide bombing as they watched the pictures of a particularly horrific attack on TV, she recalls his words. 

"I remember watching the pictures of the victims and their families and how I was crying and crying, and I asked him: 'How much longer would this go on' she recounts. 

"And he said to me: 'Shoshana if a suicide bomber ever comes close to my school, he will not get past me. With my own body I would stop him."



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/15/2002 8:03 pm  
To:  ALL   (3 of 61)  
 
  369.3 in reply to 369.2  
 
Thousands rally for Israel in Washington
By Janine Zacharia


WASHINGTON - Tens of thousands of Americans, most of whom arrived on hundreds of buses from 15 states and Canada, rallied in solidarity with Israel yesterday on a wide green beneath the dome of the US Capitol building. 

Under a blazing sun, and with hardly a slice of shade for the weary, a spectrum of American Jews chanted and cheered alongside non-Jews who also came out to show their support for Israel's war against Palestinian terrorism. 

The main unifying theme of the diverse crowd, as reflected in the signs and opinions of those present was simple: The US war against terrorism and Israel's war against terrorism are one and the same. 

Similarly, there was much anger directed at Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat in particular and toward the European Union, which last week called for a trade embargo against Israel. 

"Israel has the right to fight terror too," read one of thousands of signs. 

"Arafat = Bin Laden," read another with the insignia of the Jewish terrorist group Kahane Chai beneath it. Another said, "Kahane was right," referring to Meir Kahane, the founder of the outlawed Kach movement, which advocated the transfer of Arabs and annexation of all the territories. "Israel - We're with you. US-Thank you. EU - How dare you," read still another. 

Among those who addressed the crowd were Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, former prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, Construction and Housing Minister Natan Sharansky, Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior, Nobel laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel, congressional leaders, and former New York mayor Rudolph Giuliani. 

The rally began at 1 p.m. under tight security with a moment of silence intended to coincide with the start of Remembrance Day in Israel. It was followed by a singing of the Israeli and American national anthems and then a steady stream of speakers, including a Catholic leader and a Christian radio host. 

Mortimer Zuckerman, chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, which threw together the rally in only five days, told the cheering crowd, "Israel as a nation is entitled to use strength in her self-defense." Arafat, rather than focusing on building his own state, has "focused on the destruction of another state," he added. 

Much of the focus was on Arafat's support for terrorism. And no one in the crowd seemed to be concerned about whether Secretary of State Colin Powell would be able to clinch a cease-fire and move the sides toward peace negotiations. 

When House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt (D-Missouri) said the US is committed to preserving and strengthening Israel's security, the crowd erupted in wild applause. But when he spoke about securing a just and lasting peace for all, the crowd fell silent. 

Wolfowitz, a staunch supporter of Israel, was heckled nonetheless when he said Israelis are not the only victims of violence in the Middle East and that the majority of Palestinians want peace. 

When he started a sentence, "The people of Israel and Palestine..." some in the crowd started screaming "What Palestine?" Another, appearing dismayed, said, "This is Wolfowitz?" "No double standards," people chanted as Wolfowitz spoke. 

The chanting was so distracting that Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman of the Presidents Conference, asked people at the end of his remarks to stay silent until after the speakers were completed. 

Steve Malamud, who came from Rockville, Maryland, said he was glad a lot of people showed up, but lamented what he perceived as a lack of energy. "It's not the same energy as the peace rallies of the '60s," he said. A child with Malamud hid beneath a sign to try to escape the unseasonal summery weather. 

The lucky ones had transported extra water and suntan lotion. But the vast majority were caught without provisions, and one man desperately tried to ration out a limited stash of free water bottles to the elderly. 

Another participant, asked his thoughts toward the end of the rally, echoed Malamud's sentiment: "I don't know what it was like in the '60s, but frankly I was kind of bored." 

Hoenlein jumped in from time to time to assure participants that thousands were still making their way down the New Jersey Turnpike and said the American Jewish community was "writing a new page" in its history. 

Many came to simply express frustration and anger. "I'm tired of hearing the UN making resolutions for the Palestinians. I never heard a resolution introduced when the bombers were strapping bombs on their bodies and blowing up Israelis," said Patricia Adelson, who woke up at 1:30 a.m. to drive from Williamstown, Massachusetts, to a bus depot in Albany, New York. 

"I came to support Israel," said Nohemi Beitzel, originally from Nicaragua. Neither she nor her husband is Jewish. But she said she felt compelled to drive from her home in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, with her two children, to be there for Israel. 

Sagive Greenspan arrived on one of two organized buses from Raleigh, North Carolina. One bus showed the movie Exodus and the other Victory at Entebbe. Greenspan, 30, from Ramat Gan, said he came because "it's very important to show our support for the war on terror and to show the whole world that we identify with Israel."


Source: www.Jpost.com Jerusalem Post



David A. Brown
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  From:  The_Chairman   4/20/2002 9:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 61)  
 
  369.4 in reply to 369.1  
 
LOL, your sarcasm is too funny! And while they are at it, the Israelis will send hundreds of innocent Palestinians, via cold-blooded murder, to the promised land. Go ahead, Israel, I am powerless to stop your "New Holocaust". You learned so well from the Nazis. Enjoy the next suicide bomb, I know that I will. 
  
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  From:  DD4ME2    4/20/2002 2:22 pm  
To:  The_Chairman unread  (5 of 61)  
 
  369.5 in reply to 369.4  
 
You are taking the words out of my mouth and you took to words out of the mouth of a survivor of the Holocaust. He himself, a Jew said at a demonstration against Isreal's action in the occupied terrotories that Isreal is creating a new Holocaust and that it was wrong what they were doing. So not all Jews and certainly not all Chrstians are agreeing with what Isreal is doing. 
Also what does Isreal want to achieve? Do they think that the Palestinias will stop their suicide bombings? From what I've heard from the people from Jening in the News they're now even more determined to pay Isreal back for what they did in Jenin. And since suicide bombins are their only means of fighting, I bet Isreal can expect another bombing soon. Isreal didn't achieve anything but more pain and sorrow for Isreali's and Palestinians alike. 

Franci 


We are each of us angels with only one wing, and 
we can only fly by embracing one another. 
*Luciano de Crescenzo* 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/20/2002 3:47 pm  
To:  The_Chairman unread  (6 of 61)  
 
  369.6 in reply to 369.4  
 
Hi  The_Chairman & DD4ME2,

 

I know that you two are posting on a forum that has different views than you do so I compliment you for your desire to reach out to others with differing views and your boldness to do so.

 

One of the things that I see as so distasteful in the Israel /Palestinian/Arab situation is that the only ending that the non-Jewish parties are willing to accept is the complete destruction of the nation of Israel, as the Arab nations do not even print maps with the nation of Israel on them. I dont see how the Arabs/Palestinians can be supported with a stance like that and the sick fact that they are targeting innocent civilian men, women, elderly and children to carry out their temper tantrum on is unacceptable to me.

 

As the Bible points out many times God Himself fights on behalf of Israel. To go against Israel is to actually fight God, something certainly no one should want to take part in.

 

I think that about the only viable current solution is for Israel to expand their border by about 1,000 miles in each direction to give themselves some breathing room from their enemies at least until the other nations can calm down and respect and accept Israel as a neighboring nation.

 

 All the best to you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Star (ElderSage)    4/20/2002 6:58 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 61)  
 
  369.7 in reply to 369.6  
 
I think Israel has shown a lot of restraint in these matters, if they wished to the Jews have the military power and could in fact wipe Yassar and the Palestinians from the face of the Earth. There would not be a thing the combined Arab nations in the region could do about it without being destroyed themselves. The Israelis have however proved themselves once again to be a civilized people, something I'm afraid cannot be said of those who either control or support the other side. Arafat could have had 95% of what he wanted a short time ago, he turned it all down and instead began the suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks which will gain nothing but the death of more Palestinians. Israel has no choice but to respond swiftly and harshly to these acts, it is apparently the only thing these people understand. Those who are trying to compare the Jews to the Nazis and who have any real feelings for the Palestinians at all should be thankful the Israelis are not Nazis, for if they truly were, the Palestinians would  no longer be a problem, they would have ceased to exist several years ago.  God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who try to do her harm!  This has been proven time and time again throughout history, the events since the re-establishment of Israel have again proven Gods word to be true, Praise God! One would have to be blind not to see this and a fool not to support Israel in whatever action they might be forced to take.
"If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything" 
  
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  From:  DD4ME2    4/21/2002 8:25 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 61)  
 
  369.8 in reply to 369.6  
 
Hi David, 
Well as a Christian I think it's important to let other Christians know that not all Christians support Isreal in their action against the Palestinians. 

First of all, as I've said many times on other boards, the Isreali goverment is not chosen by God, but by people and therefore they are not free from sin. I heard so many times from other Christians that because the Jews are God's chosen people we should support them whatever happens. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. If Isreal is doing a genocide on the Palestinians I'm not going to support that. 

Further there is no evidence that when the Palestinians get their own state they will destroy Isreal. Remember South Africa and Apartheid. One of the reasons whites were reluctant to give the black people voting power was that they were afraid that when a black man would become president, the black people would take revenge for all the years of bad treatment and the killings. Well a black man became president, and nothing happened. No mass killings of whites or anything of that kind. 

So I think Isreal has an unrealistic fear. Yes Palestinians are killing innocent people, but Isreal is killing innocent people too. Not ever Palestinian, man, woman, child is a terrorist but still Isreal are killing them and destroying their homes. Can you be suprised then by the amount of hate of the ordinary people against Isreal and President Bush? I don't think so. If your house was destroyed while you didn't do anything, when you are treated like a second rate citizen for most of your life, you will learn to hate, but that doesn't mean Isreal will be destroyed, Whites in South Africa weren't destroyed either. 

And Isreal expanding its borders with a 1000 miles is not solution either because that will mean more war with surrounding countries and more death. The only solution is that Isreal has to give back the occupied terrotories, that will be the first good step towards peace because that's all the Palestinias want. Don't listen to those extremist, you have them everywere, heck I even come across plenty of Christian extremist on these boards. Not every Palestinian wants Isreal destroyed, all they want is their own state and live in peace. It's just the Exreme fractions that want Isreal destroyed, not your ordinary civilian on the street, Although after Isreal's actions of last weeks, a lot of ordinary Palestinians might have changed their minds. As I said before, I think Isreal's actions might have done more harm to them than good. 

Peace, Shalom, Salaam. 

Franci 


We are each of us angels with only one wing, and 
we can only fly by embracing one another. 
*Luciano de Crescenzo* 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/21/2002 4:56 pm  
To:  DD4ME2    (9 of 61)  
 
  369.9 in reply to 369.8  
 
Hi DD4ME2,

 

I know that throughout the Church age some even many have chosen not to support Israel but as for me I support Israel, blemishes and all. I think that the Arab world is deliberately doing things to place Israel into a desperate situation and then desperate people do desperate things in desperate times so really it is hard to condone Israel during these times.

 

Also, thanks for reminding me, I found this really good discussion about this topic on the Knot Gang forum.

 

The Knot Gang

 

Post #7 shows a picture of someone actually wearing a bomb vest and post #10 is also another very disturbing photo.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/25/2002 3:35 pm  
To:  ALL   (10 of 61)  
 
  369.10 in reply to 369.2  
 
Thursday April 25, 2002  Source Jerusalem Post www.JPost.com
A Palestinian fighter's version of the Jenin battle
'Al-Ahram Weekly'

CAIRO - Omar sits restlessly on his chair in the safe-house. He is an "engineer" from Jenin refugee camp: one of the revered bomb-makers from the City of the Bombers. To the Israelis he is the most lethal, and wanted, of terrorists. The poison from the cobra's head. 

We meet late last Thursday, hours after he escaped from the camp as Israeli soldiers took control of the area. We are still close enough to Jenin that we can see the constant stream of illumination flares, three launched by the army at a time, that light up the soldiers' dark work in the city below. 

But Omar will not be staying here long. He is going to ground deeper in the West Bank before regrouping with his comrades from Jenin. 

There may not be too many. Even according to Israeli army sources, at least 100 fighters were killed and hundreds more wounded and captured during the eight days of savage fighting. 

Omar will not give his name or age. He is slim, in his mid-20s, with a closely cropped beard. He is a member of Islamic Jihad, but says in Jenin all the factions were loyal to only one cause: liberation or death. 

Visible beneath a blue bomber jacket is the tightly bandaged stump of his right arm, the end of which he rubs distractedly. 

How did he lose it? During the previous invasion of Jenin by the Israeli army several weeks ago, he says. He was hiding with only his arm visible as he tried to throw a kwa - a home-made pipe bomb - at a tank. Shrapnel from a shell severed it, he says. 

But as a bomb-maker, one of the most highly respected positions in the Palestinian resistance, he could equally have lost the arm in less glorious circumstances: in one of the explosions that are a professional hazard of his job. 

Omar admits he is one of only a few dozen fighters not to emerge either dead or in plastic handcuffs from the fiercest battle waged by the Palestinians during the Israeli army's invasion of the West Bank. 

Of his group of 30 gunmen, only four escaped from the camp on Wednesday, after the Palestinian arsenal ran dry. Most of the others were shot dead. 

"Of all the fighters in the West Bank, we were the best prepared," he says. 

"We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month." Omar and other "engineers" made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations. 

"We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel, because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said. 

"We cut off lengths of mains water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four meters apart throughout the houses - in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas." The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside rubbish bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men. 

Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery. 

According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan. 

"We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. "If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend." 

And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers? 

"They were lured there," he says. "We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving." The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby- trapped area. 

"When the senior officers realized what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire. 

"Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us." On Wednesday, after the fighters ran out of ammunition, he says, armored vehicles roamed the streets calling out to them in Arabic: "You are finished and can't win against us. We are more powerful than you. Surrender." 

He saw one fighter who went down to the street with his hands in the air shot dead by snipers. He chose to flee the camp, although he will not say how. 

Using his left arm, Omar shot a revolver during the gun battles. 

With a new intensity on his face, he leans forward to ask a question. Do I think the doctors will be able to give him a strong new artificial arm with fingers he can operate. I don't know, I say. Why? 

"Because I want to be able to hold a heavy rifle again. That way I can kill more Israeli soldiers. It's that or become a suicide bomber."



David A. Brown
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  From:  123four   4/25/2002 11:38 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 61)  
 
  369.11 in reply to 369.6  
 
You know, David, the Arabs will not stop 
until either God halts them (which He will) 
or Israel is Anhilated forever. It's sure 
going to be good to see the glory of God!!! 
  
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  From:  Diana (LadyChurch)   4/26/2002 11:05 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 61)  
 
  369.12 in reply to 369.1  
 
This all very sad, because every one thought that starting a new millennium would encourage countries to spread peace and World Unity! 


--- Lady has no Church-Chat
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/26/2002 3:16 pm  
To:  Diana (LadyChurch)   (13 of 61)  
 
  369.13 in reply to 369.12  
 
Hi Diana,

 

Very good observation, that this Mideast crises has only two possible outcomes. Either the Arabs satisfy their blood lust and destroy Israel or God steps in and saves Israel.

 

My money is defiantly on God Stepping in and saving Israel.

 

Also I think the work should know by now that No Jesus No Peace Know Jesus Know Pease I know its a Christian bumper sticker but a good one at that!

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/26/2002 6:46 pm  
To:  ALL   (14 of 61)  
 
  369.14 in reply to 369.2  
 
Source Jerusalem Post www.JPost.com
Friday April 26, 2002  

Timberland boss: Israeli message is not reaching US
By Etgar Lefkovits

Israel has failed in the public relations war against the Palestinian Authority, and is likely to lose the support of the American public unless it stops reacting and starts communicating its own point of view, Jeffrey Swartz, president and CEO of the Timberland Company said yesterday. 

"I'm a shoe guy, and if I did as lousy a job building my brand as Israel does in telling her side of the story, than I'd certainly be fired," Swartz said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post at the culmination of a four-day Boston solidarity visit he made to Israel this week. 

Saying "a truth not told is a truth not heard is no longer a truth," Swartz, an observant Jew who oversees operations of the $1.1 billion global footwear, apparel, and accessories company, said part of the problem is Israel always seems to be on the defensive - responding to Palestinian claims - and does not succeed in getting its message across. 

"We know ]PA Chairman] Arafat is the bad guy, but how are you going to solve the problem?" he asks. 

The issue, he concedes, is exacerbated because it needs to be explained in 10 second sound-bites for the American audience. 

Swartz proposes that 100 reservists who took part in the recent military operation be sent for a week to speak to thousands of American Jews in the 50 largest US markets. 

"They should tell the American Jewish community what is going on through the eyes of a simple average person, which will be much more informative, impressive, and effective than your well oiled politician doing the same thing," he said. 

The goal of such a mission, Swartz says, should be threefold - encourage American Jewry to visit Israel and see the situation for themselves; mobilize 100,000 American Jews to be more politically involved; and encourage them to write a check to help Israel. 

Swartz voiced the hope such a campaign would bring 25,000 American Jews to Israel by the end of the summer, helping Israel's ailing economy. 

He said the editorial pages of most leading US newspapers have turned against Israel in recent weeks. He noted the pro-Palestinian attitudes prevalent on university campuses, which he said are often an indication of future developments. 

"You put CNN and ]US Secretary of State] Colin Powell together and this could make things very bad for Israel," he said, noting UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and UN special envoy Terje Larsen are "hard at work" trying to reduce mainstream America's support for Israel. 

Swartz said that after his 96 hour visit he is going home with a "sense of duty" to ensure the "overwhelming and life changing" things he saw during his trip - including a bag of the steel shrapnel doctors at Hadassah-University Hospital, Ein Kerem pulled out of the insides of a 25-year-old reservist wounded by a car bomb in Hebron - are publicized. 

Timberland operates six stores in Israel, and it products are sold in 17 other sporting-goods stores owned by its Israel distributor, Sakal. 

Their store in Jerusalem closed several years ago due to poor sales, but Swartz said he wants to see more stores open - especially now. 

Swartz said that he has heard of many American businesses having second thoughts about investing in the country due to "canards" spread in the US media. He said the "canards" are based on unconfirmed rumors about Israel's military operation, something he vows to fight with all his strength. 

"There is a right and wrong, and American Jews need to be informed, inspired, and engaged because we are losing the battle for their hearts and minds," he said. 

"Did I come here as a Jew and as the CEO of Timberland? Yes. Might my board of directors say to me - what are you doing giving an interview to The Jerusalem Post expressing such strong feelings? Sure. But I owe this to my children, to my family, to you, and to the nation of Israel," he said. 

"The Godfather was wrong when he said this is nothing personal, it's just business. This is deeply personal," he concluded. 



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/28/2002 6:01 pm  
To:  ALL   (15 of 61)  
 
  369.15 in reply to 369.2  
 
Apr. 25, 2002
LOOKING AROUND: Jenin in ruins
By Barbara Sofer

The so-called massacre in Jenin is a myth, but images of the rubble and corpses which have assailed us all week cause strong reactions in us, as Israelis and Jews. 

Our first response is understandably defensive, with a UN team poised to judge our morality as a nation. The dismissive attitude toward both our right to defend ourselves and to our extreme efforts to do so with the lowest possible civilian cost exasperates us. 

We're disgusted by the presumption of those who hailed the adeptness of American bombing of Afghanistan to criticize us for fighting terrorism house-to-house. Where were UN inspectors and European soccer associations in Kandahar to determine the worthiness of the US to be part of the world community or to play ball with exalted competitors? 

I found myself flipping back to the celebrated photo essay "Kandahar in Ruins," by Gilles Peress which ran last January in the New Yorker. Kandahar, a town on the plains of southern Afghanistan and headquarters of Taliban head Mullah Omar, was an important war target. The US began bombing the city on October 7. Kandahar fell two months later. 

"Kandahar in Ruins" features four photos. The first is the house "which Osama bin Laden once used" reduced to stones, with somber men taking stock. The second is the wall of a prison where several hundred Northern Alliance and al-Qaida members were reportedly held. Prisoners drew airplanes decorated with swastikas, and left graffiti in Farsi and Arabic. 

The third shows men coming through a mural-decorated wall of what was Omar's compound. The last photo showed only the bucolic grounds of Mirais Hospital in Kandahar, a single man bowing in prayer. Says the photo caption: "Civilians injured in the American bombing shared space in the hospital with soldiers, including a group of Arab fighters who arrived with grenades strapped to their bodies and established a stand off with authorities." 

No victims, no women, no body bags and no children crying outside wrecked houses populate the photos after two months of bombing. 

Could the American operation really have been so sanitary?
One photo essay doesn't make a theory, but the New Yorker is a serious magazine, and Peress one of the world's top photographers. 

I WAS sufficiently intrigued by the contrast between those bloodless photos and the ones we've been seeing from Jenin to seek out his international cellular phone. Behold! French born, American-based Peress was in Jerusalem. 

The bombing of Kandahar and the fighting in Jenin were incomparable, he said. Circumstances, architecture and fighting were all different. For all its publicity, Kandahar was just a crossroads, not a crowded refuge camp. The US bombing had been amazingly precise. 

He was in New York City when the Muslim suicide bombers downed the Twin Towers. Hence, he was most interested in Omar's headquarters, for a sense of personal closure. His choice of capturing only the peaceful hospital exterior was practical. The wards were simply too dangerous for a camera-toting civilian.
His own photo essay here wasn't yet complete. He'd taken photos of Netanya, too. Peress warned me against what he called "the globalization of pain." Each war zone was different. In the case of Jenin, it was too early to know if this was or wasn't a scene of "war crimes." 

The mention of "war crimes" made me even more defensive, of course. Only after hanging up did I realize that the defensiveness - our need to protest the reaction of our critics - is a distraction from our own feelings about Jenin. The truth is that we're not indifferent to the photos, either, not because we felt guilty for rooting out terrorists there or that we doubted the behavior of our forces in the small section of the city they entered. Even while mourning our own dead, we wince at the scenes of death and homelessness. We are taught never to rejoice over the death of our enemies, be they ancient or modern. 

Instead of investing in the improvement of daily life, the Palestinian Authority has fostered violence and terror and taught hate, and shows no signs of changing. 

Looking at the pictures of Jenin, a friend shook her head and suggested we knock down the whole thing and build decent housing. And this was from a mother whose own son fought in that dismal town. 

How interesting that - notwithstanding what they say to CNN - Palestinian parents weren't too frightened of Israeli soldiers to approach military doctors with requests that they examine their children. 

We're not responsible for the poverty and the terrorism, but the aerial views showing the crowdedness, the everyday poverty and destitution of the UN-maintained refuge camps even without the destruction, depressingly underscore just how far the reality of the region is from a once-vaunted dream of the land of peace and plenty known as the New Middle East. 

We've been so busy justifying our actions, that we have yet to confront the depressing reality of being back at war again, tanks rolling, soldiers avoiding ambushes, shoving aside baby cots to reveal booby-trapped cellars, all because the Palestinian Authority refused peace. 

We didn't want this war. Israelis know war too intimately to seek or glorify it. Hence, for 18 months - most of that time under the premiership of Ariel Sharon - a reluctant Israeli nation held back from fullscale attacks on Palestinian cities despite the goading terror, seeking every other alternative. 

We berate ourselves for making deals with a partner who turned out to be demonic. 

We shouldn't. Our bitter losses and the grim images of the innocent killed in the pursuit of our enemies remind us why we have tried so hard to avoid war and were willing to take risks to pursue peace. They explain why we still must explore every avenue of peace, even as our soldiers endanger themselves to hunt down terrorists who use their children as human shields and ours as targets for slaughter.



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/28/2002 6:04 pm  
To:  ALL   (16 of 61)  
 
  369.16 in reply to 369.2  
 
Source: Jerusalem Post www.JPost.com

Jerusalem Post

Dear Reader,

Over the past 18 months, demand for reliable, high-quality English-language news and analysis about events in Israel has skyrocketed. You have helped us build a readership wider than the next five largest Israel-based Web sites combined.

In order to better respond to your demands, we have adopted a state-of-the-art publishing technology that allows us to update the site more frequently, give you faster access to news, and provide additional news tools such as interactive maps.

We have added three new sections: Israeli Life, an in-depth look at everyday living here; Arab Affairs, offering insight into the culture and society of our neighbors, and an expanded Literary Supplement.

These are the first of many changes we are making on the site. Stay tuned for more.

Regards,

BRET STEPHENS
Editor-in-Chief

ALAN D. ABBEY
Vice President, Electronic Publishing



David A. Brown
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  From:  Mary'sSong (James255)   4/29/2002 11:24 am  
To:  The_Chairman unread  (17 of 61)  
 
  369.17 in reply to 369.4  
 
<<Enjoy the next suicide bomb, I know that I will.>> 
You're a fool, big words and no brains. If you mean what you say you should be over there strapping a bomb to yourself, not on a forum promotting cold-blooded murder and terrorism of the worst sort. It's the mark of a coward and a fool. 

You can think what you like, but the only thing using suicide bombers will accomplish is the complete annilation of Palestine. 

The innocents dying are the Israeli children killed by murdering terrorists. Period. Arafathead could have stopped all of this, but only by giving up his power. He'd rather see innocent children murdered than see peace.
 
  
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  From:  Mary'sSong (James255)   4/29/2002 11:27 am  
To:  DD4ME2    (18 of 61)  
 
  369.18 in reply to 369.5  
 
Yes, they expect to stop the suicide bombings, and they will. What do you want them to do, just set by while their children are murdered by terrorists? It's easy to talk silly while you're sitting half a world away and don't know what it's like to pick up the remains of your children in a basket. 
Yes, they probably can expect another suicide bombing soon. This doesn't mean they stop fighting. What it does mean is that they start fighting harder and kill those responsible before they can do more damage. 

Arafathead's own headquarters had supplies for making suicide bombs, which means he was never serious in talking peace.
 
  
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  From:  Mary'sSong (James255)   4/29/2002 11:38 am  
To:  DD4ME2    (19 of 61)  
 
  369.19 in reply to 369.8  
 
<<First of all, as I've said many times on other boards, the Isreali goverment is not chosen by God,>> 
You'd better go read your Bible again. It says all governments are chosen by God. Even athiistic governments are chosen by God, and are in place for a reason. And whether you buy it or not, the Jews ARE God's chosen people. Unless you also believe God is a liar? 

And in case you really don't listen to the news, you sound terribly ignorant of the facts. It's the Muslim world that wants to commit genocide on the Jews. There are more Palestinians that there are Jews in that part of the world, and the real problem the Palestinians have is NOT Israel, but the other Muslim nations who won't take in refugees, and countries such as Jorda who spout foolishness, but refuse to have a border with any country that might be set up for the Palestinians. 

Talking genocide is the mark of a very ignorant person. There are literally millions and millions of Plaestinians, and the number of dead is only a couple of thousand over the last several years. This shows enormous restraint on the part of the Israeli military. 

The other real problem in the middle east is that none of the Muslim countries are democracies, and all are run by power hungry tyrants who take full advantage of the religious beliefs of the people who quite literally serve the, 

But I gotta be honest, I don't think you read the Bible much. Your views certainly didn't come from there. 

And in case no one bothered to tell you, we have to support Israel because without them the middle east would explode within a month, and we'd never see the end of it. They happen to be the only real friend we have in that part of the world, and the only thing maintaing status quo. 

And apartheid has nothing to do with the middle east. That's not comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples and the moon. The Palestinians and other Muslim nations have vowed to their God that Israel will be destroyed. 

And if the Palestines really wanted a country instead of violence they should have accepted the Israeli offer to take the entire West Bank and all of Gaza. It's exactly what they asked for, but when it was actually offered they said no.
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/29/2002 4:15 pm  
To:  Mary'sSong (James255) unread  (20 of 61)  
 
  369.20 in reply to 369.19  
 
Hi James,

 

Thanks for your comments!

 

I agree with you on this Issue and think that one of the biggest problems in finding a solution is that the world is basing their opinions about Israel based on out right lies, deception and propaganda, mostly placed by the mainstream media sources.

 

A little study and investigation into this topic reveals some rather startling information.

 

For Instance there is no such ting as a Palestinian. The people are Arabs, descendants of Arabs, speaking the Arab language, practicing the Arab-Muslim religion and living Arab cultural tradition. There is not even a country or a homeland for :Palestinians because there is no such thing as a Palestinian.

 

The Arabs-Muslims were Never Interested in the Land of Israel. Jerusalem is not mentioned one time in the Koran (the Muslim guide book). Yet Jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times in the Bible, the Holy book of the Jews and Christians.

 

The list goes on and on and the only reason that the world wants to deny Israel their rightful place to live is because it is an ungodly world acting out its ungodly desires against God and His chosen people.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
 
From:  DD4ME2    4/30/2002 9:12 am  
To:  Mary'sSong (James255) unread  (21 of 61)  
 
  369.21 in reply to 369.19  
 
I may not read my bible a lot, since I'm a new Christian, but I know that even if the bible says goverments are chosen by God, which I don't believe since we vote for those goverments, that doesn't mean they are without sin, and certainly Isreal and its people are not without sin, even if they are chosen by God, and I will not blindly support any goverment when they are doing wrong and are abusing human rights. I'm sorry, I find that an utterly stupid attitude. Next you know another Hitler like person might rise in Isreal itself, who wants to put all Palestinians in concentration camps and exterminate them and I should blindly support that because Isreal is a chosen people by God? Sorry, but as I said that's stupid. I know I've streched the example a bit, but that's what I think, you should never blindly follow any goverment just because you interpite the bible a certtain way. If a goverment abuses human rights, I will not support it whatever the bible says. 
Peace, 

Franci 


We are each of us angels with only one wing, and 
we can only fly by embracing one another. 
*Luciano de Crescenzo* 
  
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  From:  Chuchulainn   4/30/2002 2:26 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 61)  
 
  369.22 in reply to 369.20  
 
But wasn't Palestine a state at one point? Didn't the US carve Israel out of that state? 
I'm sorry, David, but these das the Palestinians have no true place to call home, for in Israel, they are treated as second class citizens. One of my friends watched as his cousin was shot while driving a tractor by Israili (sp?) guns, and he is furious! 

Unfortunately, I don't see any peace between the two peoples. I think that if Arafat called off his suicide bombers and started to work a nonviolent solution, he would gain his state, which is pretty much rightfully theirs. In fact, according to the UN declaration of human rights, it is the right of all people to have a nationality, but sadly this is not the case for the Palestinians. 

I pray that peace come through civilized conduct, and that a compromise is reached. People need to pull their heads up from out of the dust, especially the two leaders, and strike a balance, or as another said, God will intervene. 

By the by, it's pronounced cooh-HU-lan. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 4/30/2002 5:30:38 PM ET by CHUCHULAINN 
  
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  From:  Diana (LadyChurch)   5/1/2002 11:11 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 61)  
 
  369.23 in reply to 369.13  
 
Ditto.. even some of the civil America-Muslims think that this should be stopped too... 
Check this topic... 

What Islam says about jihad - Suicide bombing 

From: BAALTESHUVA Apr-16 6:57 am 
To: ALL (1 of 136) 
81.1 

I would love to convince Hamas to dispense with themselves, and otherwise discourage, the mission of the suicide bombers in Palestine. 

I would like to instead see Hamas and Hezbollah receive the kind of support by the neighboring primarily Moslem states that would afford them to act more like legitimate militiary units. 


http://forums.delphiforums.com/islamispeace/messages/?tid=81 



--- Lady has no Church-Chat
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/1/2002 3:01 pm  
To:  Diana (LadyChurch) unread  (24 of 61)  
 
  369.24 in reply to 369.23  
 
Hi,

 

I was just thinking about this topic yesterday.

 

It sure is Amazing that the world is not in an uproar over this child endangerment. I think we will have to wait a long time before we see a Muslim brought to trial for child endangerment also along the same lines the various witchcraft and pagan practices are also extremely dangerous to children yet the government doesnt have the interest to protect those children nor the desire to prosecute those offenders.

 

Even though the current sexual misconduct scandal is painful for Christianity Im glad that Christian misconduct is being brought out into the open where it can be dealt with. I think that this openness is good for keeping Christianity pure and clean, and this openness is something that I doubt that we will ever see from the cults.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Chuchulainn   5/3/2002 4:13 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (25 of 61)  
 
  369.25 in reply to 369.24  
 
I agree, David. I think that it is about time for the catholic church to get rid of its sins, although it claims to be holy. How could it be when its priests are committing vile sin? I think that it makes it more pure, but I don't agree with many Catholic policies. 
================================================== 
I fear only that the sky come down and crush me, or the earth swallow me, or the sea rise and overwhelm me. 
~Chuhulainn 
 
  
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  From:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    5/3/2002 9:37 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 61)  
 
  369.26 in reply to 369.24  
 
I must challenge your statement, David. You said, "also along the same lines the various witchcraft and pagan practices are also extremely dangerous to children". I know many practitioners of Wicca (what you call witchcraft) and paganism; they are among the most caring and loving parents I've ever known. I daresay they take better care of their children than most christians I know. Please be more careful with your generalizations.
Namaste,
Becca 

Host of Church of the Holy Mountain discussion forum 

Church of the Holy Mountain 

I reserve the right to marry anyone, male or female, providing that they are informed and agreeable, and that they are of the age of consent. 


 

Becca's mood is 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/3/2002 4:44 pm  
To:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    (27 of 61)  
 
  369.27 in reply to 369.26  
 
Hi Becca,

 

My Statement is Valid.

 

Most (real) witchcraft/Occult is about animal or people sacrifice & drinking of the blood. Children are considered their easiest victims and also they think that there is power to be derived from the young (Innocent) lives. And not to mention the sexual perversions that occur in the occult again where children are a prime target.

 

I know that you are mad at God and against all Christians but making the comment that many or most Christian families are unsafe for children is really reaching.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    5/3/2002 6:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 61)  
 
  369.28 in reply to 369.27  
 
*sigh*... *SIGH* David, David, David... I dunno what creepy horror stories you're reading, but you obviously don't know any real witches. Real witches do NONE of what you said. Please, go find some pagans or followers of Wicca and get to really know them. You'll see how mistaken you are. 
I didn't say that christian families were unsafe for children - please don't twist my words. I said that of the Wiccans or pagans I know, "they take better care of their children than most christians I know."  That doesn't say the children are unsafe in the hands of christians... just that the pagans I know treat their children with more tender loving care and a greater respect for their lives and well-being.

Namaste,
Becca 

Host of Church of the Holy Mountain discussion forum 

Church of the Holy Mountain 

I reserve the right to marry anyone, male or female, providing that they are informed and agreeable, and that they are of the age of consent. 


 

Becca's mood is 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/3/2002 7:48 pm  
To:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    (29 of 61)  
 
  369.29 in reply to 369.28  
 
Hi Becca,

 

How are your Pagan friends preparing for the Eternal future of their children?

 

 David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    5/4/2002 3:57 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 61)  
 
  369.30 in reply to 369.29  
 
"Paganism" is more or less an umbrella term; there are several different belief systems under that umbrella. You can go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/ to learn more. 
Regardless, each of these paths are equally valid with your Christian beliefs. They're just different.

Namaste,
Becca 

Host of Church of the Holy Mountain discussion forum 

Church of the Holy Mountain 

I reserve the right to marry anyone, male or female, providing that they are informed and agreeable, and that they are of the age of consent. 


 

Becca's mood is 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/4/2002 3:35 pm  
To:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    (31 of 61)  
 
  369.31 in reply to 369.30  
 
Hi Becca,

 

The paths are not at all equal.

 

The reason is, is that there is Only one Truth. There is an Explanation a Reason to the Existence of the World, the Universe in which we live, and even our very own Existence. 

 

All paths do not have the Answers to Life Death and the Mysteries thereof  only the Bible, Christianity/Judaism do. Therefore not every path can be correct and valid  especially paths that contradict one other.

 

And my question to you was How are your Pagan friends preparing for the Eternal future of their children?

 

All the Best,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/4/2002 9:01 pm  
To:  ALL   (32 of 61)  
 
  369.32 in reply to 369.1  
 
Source Jorusalem Post JPost.com
May. 3, 2002
Barghouti tells investigators: Arafat approved terrorist funding
By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH


Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat personally authorized funding for Fatah Tanzim activities, knowing they would be used to finance terrorist attacks, the Prime Ministers Office said Thursday. It based its charge on Shin Bet interrogations of West Bank Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti and his aides, Ahmed Barghouti, Nasser Awis, and Nasser Abu Hmeid. 

The four are among hundreds of Fatah activists arrested during Operation Defensive Shield. Information they revealed clearly shows the direct link between Arafat and terrorist activities carried out by members of the Fatah organization he heads. 

Their confessions are supported by information revealed in the vast number of documents seized from the various PA offices during the IDF operation. 

Marwan Barghouti told his interrogators he directed terrorist attacks in which scores of Israelis were killed and revealed how he allocated the funds needed by the terror cells to operate and to purchase the necessary weapons. 

All those seeking financial assistance had to fill out a detailed form that he added his recommendation to and signed before giving it to Arafat. No matter how small the sum, each request needed Arafats authorization, and then the money was allocated according to the instructions of Al-Hakam Balawi, secretary of the Fatah central committee. 

Awis, head of the Fatah infrastructure in Samaria, who was responsible for arming, recruiting, and dispatching terrorists, also admitted to receiving funds authorized by Arafat. He told his interrogators that the names of Tanzim activists were submitted to Barghouti, who took them to Arafat for approval. Awis admitted responsibility for numerous terrorist attacks. 

Among them were the January 17 attack in a Hadera wedding hall in which six were killed and 26 wounded; the January 22 shooting attack in Jerusalem in which two were killed and 36 wounded; the February 25 a shooting attack in Jerusalems Neveh Yaacov section in which a policewoman was killed and 10 people wounded; the March 5 attack in Tel Avivs Sea Food restaurant in which three were killed; and the March 9 shooting and grenade attack in Netanya in which two were killed and 50 wounded. 

Abu Hmeid, one of the founders and senior commanders of the Aksa Martyrs Brigade, also told interrogators that he and those who worked with him received financial assistance and weapons from Marwan Barghoutis assistant, Ahmed Barghouti. He also admitted that members of Arafats Force 17 presidential guard were involved in a number of terrorist attacks and that activists would go to Force 17 storerooms and receive ready-to-use bombs. 

Abu Hmeid said Marwan Barghouti was updated on all details of the terrorist attacks perpetrated by him and his people and that he was also privy to all details concerning the purchase of weapons used by cell members. 

He admitted that he and other cell members were responsible for the November 24, 2000 shooting attack in Akraba in which one person was killed; the December 21, 2000 shooting attack on Route 443 in which one was killed; the December 2000 shooting attack near Ofra later the same month in which Binyamin Zeev Kahane and his wife, Talia, were killed and their children wounded; the January 27 suicide bombing on Jerusalems Jaffa Road in which one was killed and scores wounded; the February 27 murder of Gad Rejwan in the Atarot industrial zone; the attack on Tel Avivs Sea Food restaurant; and the car bomb that exploded at the Maccabim roadblock, killing the terrorists. 

Ahmed Barghouti personally dispatched terrorists who murdered scores and wounded many more. 

He admitted to being involved in the January 25, 2001 drive-by shooting on the Bir Naballah-Atarot road in which the driver was killed; the February 25, 2001 attack on a vehicle west of the Bir Zeit bridge in which an Israeli was seriously wounded in the head; the August 25, 2001 drive-by shooting near Beit Ur a-Tahta in which three were killed and two babies wounded; the October 3, 2001 drive-by shooting on Route 9 in Jerusalem in which two were wounded; the January 15 shooting near Givat Zeev in which the driver was killed and her passenger wounded; the January 22 shooting attack on Jerusalems Jaffa Road in which two were killed; and the January 25 shooting attack in Neveh Yaacov in which a policewoman was killed and 10 wounded. 

AP adds: 

There was no immediate comment by PA officials, but they have consistently denied that Arafat approved attacks against Israelis, citing his denunciations of attacks against civilians on both sides. 

In the past, Palestinians have noted that Marwan Barghouti and Arafat are close associates and members of the same movement, and it is natural that Arafat would approve transfers of funds to his activists.




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/4/2002 9:07 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
This is Exactly one reason why all Christians need to openly Support and Stand for Israel so that we are not seen as traitors to Israel in the eyes of Israel and the world!

 

How can a Christian possibly betray the people of their Savior? A true Christian cant.

 

David

------

 

Source Jerusalem Post www.JPost.com

May. 5, 2002

Church officials allege Bethlehem cover-up

Lauren Gelfond

 

 

High-level Christian clerics covered up the real goings-on in the Church of the Nativity standoff, a church official involved in behind-the-scenes negotiations said Friday. 

 

"It is not true that all the clergymen are staying in the church of their own free will and that everyone inside is getting along," a Jerusalem-based cleric told The Jerusalem Post. 

 

"But propaganda is all that is heard, in part because of many cover-ups by the Christians who dont dare to speak up. They are cowards." Fear of Muslim militants silences those in the church and their communities, he said. 

 

"They are afraid and prepare for good relations after the siege instead of shouting at the gunmen to stop violating our holy site." He also charged that clerics have been slipping in and out of the church to participate covertly in negotiations, under cover of IDF smoke grenades, an allegation the IDF denies. 

 

There have been conflicting accounts from those who fled the church and from church officials since Hamas, Fatah Tanzim, and Islamic Jihad militiamen holed themselves up with civilians and clergy members on April 2, evading capture during the IDF siege. 

 

Though some who have escaped the church compound have described a takeover, confinement at gunpoint, threats, violence, vandalism, and theft by Palestinian gunmen inside, Christian spokesmen continue to deny strongly any hostage situation or lack of cooperation between gunmen and civilians. 

 

"The Palestinian gunmen are treating our priests with respect," said Bishop Aris Shirvanian, spokesperson for the Armenian Patriarch on Friday. "But we want this situation to come to a peaceful end." 

 

Clerics inside and Canon Andrew White, acting spokesperson for the Christian negotiators and Anglican Church envoy to the Middle East, have also said that clergy members remain inside voluntarily and are treated well. 

 

Catholic leaders of the Latin Patriarch and the Franciscan order have been the strongest in their defense of the gunmen seeking refuge, charging Israel with violating the holy site. 

 

But a Bethlehem priest corroborated allegations of a cover-up. 

 

"We [Christians] are a small minority with little rights left, so its obvious you have to be cautious with what you say. But I would have preferred silence rather than saying that everything is okay. We are worse than cowards, we are lying."

Though he spoke of "horrible" conditions and "unpleasant incidents," he said that some Franciscan clergy and seminarians are there by choice. Among them are two friars, who are Christian Arabs. 

 

The Greek Orthodox and Armenian clerics remained in their separate convents in the compound after the gunmen broke in to the Franciscan section, church officials said. 

 

The three orders share control of the church and live under the rule of the Palestinian Authority, since Bethlehem was ceded to it in 1995 under the Oslo accords. 

 

"I am angry with Palestinians for exploiting and profaning holy places and I am angry at Israelis for their military absolutism," said the Bethlehem priest, with a caveat that the Christians will ultimately benefit from the standoff. 

 

"Our situation is paradoxically a good one and we gladly assume the hardships. In the second intifada the Islamic street accused Christians of indifference or cynicism. We have now proven we are real Palestinians, not foreigners; that the church more than any other place helps people without discrimination." 

 

Christian-Muslim relations faced a new chapter in the Bethlehem area in late 2000 when Palestinian Muslim militants began firing uninvited at the nearby Gilo neighborhood under the cover of neighboring Christian Beit Jala. 

 

The Abayat Clan, accused of masterminding the Gilo shootings and other terrorist operations, has three members inside the church who are on Israels most wanted list.

"We are working on keeping what little rights we have left, under Arab Islamic or Israeli regime," the priest said. "The Christians have not been free in the Middle East or the Holy Land for at least sixteen centuries. We have to be careful, but that doesnt justify being cowards or liars."



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/4/2002 9:09 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
Source Jerusalem Post JPost.com
May. 3, 2002
Washington won't let Israel win
Column One/Caroline B. Glick


Wednesdays New York Times led with the banner headline, "New Strategy Set by US and Saudis for Mideast Crisis." The article cited administration sources, explaining that the outcome of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullahs visit to US President George W. Bushs ranch in Crawford, Texas, was a "division of labor" between the two. The Saudis are to deliver Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat to the negotiating table, and Bush is to deliver Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, starting at their meeting on Monday. The endgame, according to the article, is the establishment of a PLO state along the lines set out by president Bill Clinton in December 2000.
The Clinton proposal, which was declared null and void by the Bush administration early last year, envisioned the establishment of a Palestinian state in about 95 percent of Judea and Samaria, all of the Gaza Strip, east Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, and the Halutza dunes inside pre-1967 Israel. 

The Clinton proposal also gave legitimacy to the Palestinian demand for a "right of return," allowing for the immigration of several thousand in the framework of family reunification.
If the Times report is true, (and the Times seems to have a knack for forcing events to follow its stories), it can be said that the Bush administration is quite simply following in the footsteps of all US administrations since Dwight Eisenhowers " allowing Israel to beat Arab aggression militarily, but forcing it to lose the war politically. 

So it was in 1956, when Eisenhower forced David Ben-Gurion to beat a speedy retreat from the Sinai and Gaza at the end of the Suez campaign. The president justified the uncompromising demand by promising Israel that if the Egyptians were again to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, the US would send its navy to reopen the waterway by force. In 1967, when Gamal Abdel Nasser closed the straits, president Lyndon Johnson begged off, forcing Israel to stand alone. 

After the Six Day War, which should have led to a complete political reshuffling of the region, the US again protected Israels neighbors. 

Adopting UN Security Council Resolution 242, the US again dragged Israel along by extolling the resolutions balance " conquered land would be returned to the aggressors, but not all of it, for Israel would be allowed to retain all territory necessary to ensure it had "defensible" borders. Promises aside, since the Carter administration, the US has accepted the Arab misinterpretation of 242 " that Israel is required to return all the lands it conquered. 

In 1973, the US administration was again on hand, wresting the Egyptians from the jowls of defeat. Henry Kissinger prevented Israel from destroying Egypts Third Army, allowed the Egyptians to escape with honor and thus enabled the creation of the current Egyptian myth "that Israel lost that war." 

The Ford and Carter administrations strongly pressured Israel to sign away the Sinai in exchange for peaceful ties with Egypt, which after 23 years have yet to materialize, although Egypt, rearmed with American assistance, now poses a military threat unimaginable in the past.
In Lebanon in 1982, the Reagan administration stepped in to save a routed Arafat. The Americans paved the way for his escape with his troops from Beirut to Tunis, free to fight another day. In the meantime, the US forced Israel to withdraw from much of Lebanon and allowed the Syrian army to remain. 

And in the Gulf war, the first Bush administration not only prevented Israel from achieving political advantage, it prohibited Israel even from defending itself against unprovoked Iraqi ballistic missile attacks. After isolating Israel from the coalition, the administration proceeded to force its democratic ally to the negotiating table to discuss the transfer territory to the Arabs. When the negotiations failed to bear fruit, the administration meddled in the 1992 elections to assist in the victory of the more forthcoming Labor Party. 

Although the Clinton administration served in a decade unscathed by large-scale war, but marked by an increase in rogue states audacity and terrorist attacks on US targets, Clinton consistently urged Israel to accept Palestinian terrorism and insisted on turning a blind eye to blatant PA breaches of its commitments to Israel. The Clinton administrations addiction to pressuring Israel to accept Arab aggression under the guise of peacemaking led to unprecedented meddling in Israels internal politics. The end result could be seen in the twin pictures of Clinton impertinently announcing his peace plan after his successor had already been elected, and Madeleine Albright chasing after Arafat outside the US Embassy in Paris in a vain attempt to get him to return to the negotiating table he had just overturned. 

The refusal of successive administrations to locate the US Embassy in Jerusalem, Israels capital, is not simply an indignity, but another example of how the US has consistently prevented Israel from gaining any political advantage from its military victories against Arab aggression.
Why has the US treated Israel so shabbily? Mainly because it can get away with it. After all, Israel has no other diplomatic outlet, given that the American people is not as cynical as the State Department. Throughout this history, the US has justified denying its democratic ally the fruits of its military victories against despotic aggressors "in the interests of peace." This policy has never brought peace, nor has it engendered stability. Rather, just as feeding the beast acts not to placate it but to strengthen it, so US placation of the Arab world at Israels expense has legitimized Arab rejection of Israel. 

Never having to worry about losing irrevocably in their wars against Israel, rogue states like Syria, Iraq, and Iran ostentatiously build up non-conventional capabilities to destroy Israel. For their part, supposedly moderate regimes, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, are free to inspire as much anti-Israeli and anti-American sentiment as they wish, knowing there will never be a serious price to pay, even if this hatred foments a war they will lose. 

Today Bush, perhaps to a degree even greater than his predecessors, has sole power to determine which side will emerge victorious from the current Palestinian terrorist war against Israel. 

And what would a much maligned and dreaded Israeli political victory over the current terrorist war look like? First and foremost, it would see Arafats physical disappearance from the scene and the dismantling of his Palestinian Authority as a political and military organization. Just as in Afghanistan today and hopefully in Iraq in the near future, the US has and will set up friendly, quasi-democratic governments, so Israel, or the US, would set up a new Palestinian government, committed to coexistence with Israel and the provision of political and economic freedom to the Palestinian people. Although sovereignty would not be promised, the chances of sovereignty being achieved, naturally and peacefully, would be greatly enhanced if the Palestinian people is allowed to develop democratic institutions and economic prosperity. 

There is nothing wrong, immoral, imperialistic, or even anti-Palestinian about this plan. In fact, it would allow the Palestinians the opportunity to reconstitute their civil society after eight years of living under a corrupt dictatorship, which impoverished and subjugated them and told them to value murder more than life. 

The only thing wrong with this plan is that it allows Israel to win this war politically. 

In seemingly siding with the Saudis over Israel, the Bush administration has opted for the status quo, even though the status quo has failed repeatedly. On September 11, the US was attacked by the consequences of the status quo. Decades of hatred of the US, fuelled by despotic, US-backed regimes, which have seen the value of US guarantees as successive administrations have sold Israel out to Arab pressure, empowered al-Qaida to strike. The belief that today, the US is again preventing Israel from defeating the PA, has made Arafat stronger than he ever was before. It should have been clear by now that the Palestinian terrorist war against Israel, supported by Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Syria, together with al-Qaidas war against the US " backed by the same governments " have rendered the status quo not only destined to failure, but also dangerous to US interests. 

Given the almost schizophrenic nature of the US administrations Middle East policies, it is still anybodys guess what Bush will decide to do. One thing is certain though: For the US to be able to win its war on Islamic terrorism, Israel must be allowed to win its war on Palestinian terrorism, both militarily and politically.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/4/2002 9:24 pm  
To:  ALL   (35 of 61)  
 
  369.35 in reply to 369.1  
 
Source Jerusalem Post www.JPost.com  
May. 5, 2002
PM leaves for US with booklet linking Arafat to terror
By Herb Keinon


Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is to travel to the US today for four days of meetings at a time of growing disagreement with Washington over how to deal with Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. 

While Sharon is bringing a 100-page booklet to Washington documenting Arafats direct link to Palestinian terror organizations and actions, Bush administration officials are sending out signals they want Sharon to deal with Arafat. 

The New York Times yesterday quoted a senior foreign policy adviser to US President George W. Bush as saying the presidents immediate challenge is to "convince the Israelis its in their long-term interest to deal with Arafat, no matter how reprehensible he may be." 

The paper quoted a senior administration official as saying the Sharon government must understand that "only by having a responsible Palestinian Authority are we going to solve these questions, and that Yasser Arafat is the leader of the Palestinian Authority." 

But it is hardly likely Sharon will be in the mood to hear that he has to deal with Arafat, especially since Operation Defensive Shield has unearthed numerous documents linking Arafat to the wave of terror. 

Some of these are presented in the document Sharon will bring " prepared by Minister-without-Portfolio Dan Naveh " which officials in the Prime Ministers Office say detail Arafats financial links and personal involvement with Palestinian terror organizations and Palestinian terror. 

According to Naveh, this file leaves no room to doubt Arafats links to terror, and also documents the corruption of senior PA officials. "In his meeting in the US, the prime minister needs to remove from the agenda that thing called Arafat, and he needs to tell President Bush that Arafat cannot be a negotiating partner," Naveh said. 

Sharon, who delayed his trip for some 12 hours, will be coming back on Thursday, and not on Wednesday, as originally scheduled. He is slated to meet Bush in the White House on Tuesday afternoon. 

Prior to his meeting with Bush, Sharon is slated to meet Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. Sharon has added on a short stay in New York to meet with Jewish leaders there. 

Sharon held a number of consultations over the weekend with the inner cabinet and senior advisers to formulate the program he will take to Washington. Israeli diplomatic officials say he is expected to tell the administration he expects the security situation to stabilize before any negotiations can begin. Sharon is also expected to detail what he has in mind when he talks about "long-term interim agreements." The prime minister is also expected to discuss an idea " proposed by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres months ago " for a massive economic program to rebuild the Palestinian economy, along the lines of Americas post-war Marshall Plan that helped rebuild Europe. 

Sharon is also expected to discuss with the Bush administration the idea of an international conference, which Secretary of State Colin Powell discussed on Thursday. Israel Radio reported that the conference, which Powell said will convene in the summer, will take place in Turkey. 

Although Powell said one of the goals of the conference would be to clear the way forward to a Palestinian state, it will be difficult in Washington for Sharon to endorse the idea of a Palestinian state " which he has done in the past " because the Likud central committee is slated to meet next week and vote on a resolution asserting that no Palestinian state be established in the West Bank. 

The committee, which will select the next Likud prime ministerial candidate, is expected to overwhelmingly support this resolution. 

The Americans, in coordination with the Europeans, Russia, the United Nations, and Saudi Arabia, suggested holding a summit at which the sides could explore solutions based on the American vision of two states. The vision is of Israel and Palestine within secure borders on the basis of UN Resolutions 242 and 338, which call for a withdrawal from land occupied in the 1967 war, and a Saudi peace initiative that offers Israel full normalization with Arab states in return for a full withdrawal, Bassam Abu Sharif, a special adviser to Arafat, said. 

"We will consult all the brethren Arab leaders over this conference before it convenes," said Arafat. Abu Sharif said Arab foreign ministers would probably meet in Cairo this week to discuss the conference and coordinate their positions.
The PA has sent an envoy to Saudi Arabia to discuss the US-Saudi ideas, a PA source said. 

The official Palestinian news agency Wafa said Arafat called for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the principle of land for peace, the recent Saudi initiative, and the dismantlement of the settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. 

Arafat also called for immediate talks with Israel, to be monitored by the US, Europe, and the Arab nations The Palestinians expect Bush to present the US ideas to Sharon during their meeting today. 

"The conference will be based on the US led international initiative, not Sharons ideas," Abu Sharif said. 

Another PA source said Sharon was trying to avoid pressure to accept such a proposal and was therefore offering a plan of his own.
Palestinian officials said they are waiting for the outcome of the meeting between Bush and Sharon to see if the conference has any chance of moving the peace process forward. 

Some officials were skeptical, saying nothing would be achieved without US pressure on Israel and the Americans are not prepared to use such pressure.
One senior PA official said Arafat would only declare a cease-fire based on a US-proposed package deal combining the cease-fire with the resumption of political talks and an economic aid package to rebuild PA institutions and security services, if the US can convince Israel about its proposal and get the army to withdraw from all PA areas. 

Lamia Lahoud and news agencies contributed to this report.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Becca (SAPPHOS41)    5/5/2002 8:44 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (36 of 61)  
 
  369.36 in reply to 369.31  
 
I can see that we're going to get nowhere, because you're afraid to step out of your religious box and see if there is a larger world, let alone if it's safe out here. Therefore, I won't respond, nor will I return. 
Best of luck to you, and when you someday have to re-examine your life, I pray it isn't too painful.

Namaste,
Becca 

Host of Church of the Holy Mountain discussion forum 

Church of the Holy Mountain 

I reserve the right to marry anyone, male or female, providing that they are informed and agreeable, and that they are of the age of consent. 


 

Becca's mood is 
 
  
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  From:  123four   5/5/2002 10:49 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (37 of 61)  
 
  369.37 in reply to 369.33  
 
And how could we ever look God in the eye if we did not speak out and do whatever else we can to help Israel? 
  
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  From:  itfigures   5/6/2002 12:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (38 of 61)  
 
  369.38 in reply to 369.1  
 
the church today is jumping ob bushs back about israel 
what they dont understand is he is in the flow of divine prophecy 
and he will give parts of jerusalem to palestine 
in turn bringing a curse to the world 

but he is a christian man 
and christian rock junkies think they have the right to judge him 
what a joke 
this sorry crowd and its demon christian rock followers think they can condemn the hand of god of judgement which is w bush??? 
they deserve the curse that bushs hand will bring 
this world has it coming.
 
  
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  From:  Sakah   5/6/2002 6:17 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (39 of 61)  
 
  369.39 in reply to 369.1  
 
Hi David, I have been doing some thinking about that same thing. I watch Israel protecting herself, yet even though the United States are telling them what they can or cannot do, they are thinking about our Christian feelings as of the standoff. 
I do not know if they really think that we would turn against them if they did destroy the Church Building? But the way the President has came out against them at times, I could not blame them if they did believe it! 

I agree with you, Jesus may have been born there, But if not for the Jews not recieving him as Messiah, we would not even be here for them to worry about. I would hate to see the Church of the Nativity really damaged, but would harbor no ill feelings toward Israel. They are God's Chosen People. And I for one, love them and are willing to go the distance with them. And that means, no matter what they have to do to protect themselves. 

Thanks for the invitation, but I can not see that my post would be of much interest. I like the DarcPrynce forum, because he allowes me to post things that I see as important to the Church concerning the news of the day. He, believes in God, but has told me he and I are different in that he puts the terrorism before his faith, and I the opposite! :) And he has no problem with it. I like him very much, he is a good man, and a kind man. 

I was really surprised by the notification from here. But I will read awhile here. 

And again, thank you for the invitation. 
Sakah
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/7/2002 8:27 am  
To:  Sakah   (40 of 61)  
 
  369.40 in reply to 369.39  
 
Hi Sakah,

 

Glad to see that you did stop by!

 

Consider this an open invitation to visit or post anytime you would like to.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 5/7/2002 11:30:28 AM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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From:  Sakah   5/7/2002 5:03 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (41 of 61)  
 
  369.41 in reply to 369.40  
 
Thank you David. 
Sakah
 
  
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  From:  *I* am the ringleader of this circus! (SKATERBABS)    5/18/2002 7:24 pm  
To:  DD4ME2    (42 of 61)  
 
  369.42 in reply to 369.21  
 
Hi, hon, 
I was just wondering why you have chosen to disbelieve this part of the Bible?

Ruth and Naomi 
Beauty for Ashes 
Fireside Fellowship 
Sisters in Faith 
Christian Women and Relationships 
Christian Peace Haven 
Sig Country 
My Home Page 


 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   5/21/2002 6:01 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (43 of 61)  
 
  369.43 in reply to 369.1  
 
You're just being sarcastic, I hope. 
  
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  From:  123four   5/22/2002 10:32 am  
To:  *I* am the ringleader of this circus! (SKATERBABS)    (44 of 61)  
 
  369.44 in reply to 369.42  
 
What part of the Bible do you think I disbelieve? 
Could you give the scripture, please? 
oh lol lol lol I was going back to see what I might have said and 
noticed that you weren't even posting to me. Apologies. That's a bad habit I have of not reading an entire thread. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 5/22/2002 1:35:02 PM ET by 123four 
  
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  From:  *I* am the ringleader of this circus! (SKATERBABS)    5/22/2002 10:56 am  
To:  123four   (45 of 61)  
 
  369.45 in reply to 369.44  
 
ROFL, no biggie. :0) 


Ruth and Naomi 
Beauty for Ashes 
Fireside Fellowship 
Sisters in Faith 
Christian Women and Relationships 
Christian Peace Haven 
Sig Country 
My Home Page 


 
  
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  From:  DD4ME2    5/26/2002 5:44 am  
To:  *I* am the ringleader of this circus! (SKATERBABS)    (46 of 61)  
 
  369.46 in reply to 369.42  
 
I have chosen to not believe that part of the bible because my country has first hand experience with people blindly following a madman. So I find this attitude of blindly standing behind Isreal whatever crimes they do towarts other people, crazy. As I said I streched my example a bit, but it can happen, and will you all still stand behind Isreal if they make their own concentration camps for Palestinians, saying it's prophecy? 
A very dangerous attitude, and it shows that you people haven't learned anything from WWII. But then you all have been pretty save in your country until now. We haven't and we have learned. Just because So many Jews have sufferered and were killed, doesn't mean Isreal and their people is without sin. 

Even a concentration camp survivor said it was wrong what Isreal was doing in Jenin and other terrotories. 

Peace, 

DD4me2

We are each of us angels with only one wing, and 
we can only fly by embracing one another. 
*Luciano de Crescenzo* 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    5/26/2002 8:29 am  
To:  Chuchulainn unread  (47 of 61)  
 
  369.47 in reply to 369.22  
 
You asked: 
Didn't the US carve Israel out of that state? 

The answer is NO. 

Here are some REAL facts: 

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of 
Islam. 

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two 
decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. 

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand 
years, with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. 

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. 

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of 
any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their 
capital, and Arab leaders did not come there to visit. 

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned 
even once in the Koran. 

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. 

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backside toward Jerusalem. 

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders 
promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. 

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and 
pogroms. 

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of 
Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. 

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, 
despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only 
refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. 
Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey. 

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the 
Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. (Since Israel became a State) The Arab nations initiated 
all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won. 

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the 
Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them 
(with guns and infrastructure.) 

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of 
worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to 
people of all faiths. 

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 
97 were directed against Israel. 

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel. 

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians. 

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the 
Mount of Olives. 

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from 
visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. 

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    5/26/2002 8:32 am  
To:  ALL   (48 of 61)  
 
  369.48 in reply to 369.47  
 
Myths of the Middle East by Joseph Farah (c) 2000 
WorldNetDaily.com 
I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount. 

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple 
weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause. 

After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what? 

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right? 

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you 
that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. 

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland? 

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." 

That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured 
them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war. 

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide 
against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. 

The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. 
They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power. 

Palestine has never existed-before or since-as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman 
Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. 

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. 
Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 
percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. 

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. 

And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it 
will never be enough. 

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem. 

Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct. 

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites." 

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions 
Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem. 

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night 
Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we 
have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca 
and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection to the days of Abraham. 

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by 
Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it 
is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism? 

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin 
with truth. 

Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and 
archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name. 

A daily radio broadcast adaptation of Joseph Farah's commentaries can be heard on TalkNetDaily. 

Barbara 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/26/2002 1:33 pm  
To:  DD4ME2   unread  (49 of 61)  
 
  369.49 in reply to 369.46  
 
Hi DD4me2,

 

Let me get this straight, your position is dont support Israel because in theory some day some Israeli could be evil or controlling or make a mistake.

 

But you are saying instead support Known Evil Terrorist.

 

You do realize that you are identifying with by siding and supporting the worst evil kind of terrorism in that these terrorist have set out to destroy and harm as much innocent human life as possible.

 

I really hope that you will rethink you position and even if you reject the call that God has on the nation of Israel to support the Israelis as the descent loving humane people that they are.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    5/26/2002 8:22 pm  
To:  DD4ME2   unread  (50 of 61)  
 
  369.50 in reply to 369.46  
 
The TRUTH about Jenin: 
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60

Barbara 
  
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  From:  123four   5/27/2002 2:01 am  
To:  DD4ME2   unread  (51 of 61)  
 
  369.51 in reply to 369.46  
 
Christians are always going to 
'go with the Word', no matter what it is. 
  
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  From:  *I* am the ringleader of this circus! (SKATERBABS)    5/27/2002 6:22 am  
To:  DD4ME2   unread  (52 of 61)  
 
  369.52 in reply to 369.46  
 
Was the survivor Palestinian or Jewish? 
The Arabs in the camps are there not because the Israeli gov't put them there. They are there because the Arabs gov'ts surrounding Israel refuse to allow them to leave Israeli territory. Then they use propaganda telling the world how horrible the Jews are, how violent they are being, how many innocents are being killed, while the Arab anti-Israel terrorists are using these innocents as shields againt the Israeli army. 
The "palestinians" were NEVER a people. They were NEVER a country. Israel too land that belonged to NO ONE. The Arabs living in the area were ALWAYS a minority, and Israel would be happy to allow the INNOCENTS to leave. The neighboring Arab country cannot allow that, because then they no longer have a lever to poison the international community against Israel with. 

We never said we would blindly follow and support Israel regardless of their actions, but so far all Israel has done was try to protect itself. The Arab suicide bombers cannot say the same truthfully. Eurpose at the moment is not willing to listen to anything Israel says, and that has been the case all along. 
Israel is God's chosen people, He said it and He does not lie. You cannot pick and choose what parts of the Bible are acceptable to you and remain a Christian, it doesn't work that way. 


Ruth and Naomi 
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2002 1:34 am  
To:  ALL   (53 of 61)  
 
  369.53 in reply to 369.52  
 
Source: www.JPost.com
Jun. 13, 2002
'Pro-Israel' ad blocks sales of Int'l Herald Tribune Lebanese edition
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

BEIRUT, Lebanon - The Lebanese distributor of the International Herald Tribune decided not to sell today's edition of the Paris-based daily because of what it said was a pro-Israeli advertisement in the newspaper. 

A front-page note in the Daily Star, Lebanon's only English-language daily distributing the IHT since last July, said the decision was "due to possible legal action by the Lebanese government because of advertising content in the IHT." 

The full-page advertisement titled "Short Memory" and placed by the American Jewish Committee enumerated about 200 recent instances of anti-Semitism around the world, editor Hanna Anbar told The Associated Press. 

The IHT has been appearing in Lebanon inserted into the Daily Star. 

Under Lebanese law, a foreign publication distributing in the country cannot publish items deemed propaganda for Israel. Lebanon and Israel are technically at war. Cases relating to publications are covered by a special Publications Law and dealt with by a special court. 

In a similar case April 5, a Lebanese judge filed charges against the Daily Star editor in chief, Jamil Mroe, when the IHT published a pro-Israeli advertisement paid for by the New York-based Anti-Defamation League. 

The charges were dropped on May 9, with Judge Abdelrahim Hammoud stating Mroue could not be legally held responsible for the advertisement. 

He said, however, that the writer and publisher of the advertisement were responsible and kept the case open. No decision has been made on further action. 

Anbar said such incidents were not expected to affect the joint distribution agreement between the two newspapers. In fact, he said, the IHT informed the Daily Star in advance of its latest edition. 

In Paris, IHT executive editor David Ignatius said the Daily Star's decision does not affect the distribution agreement. 

"We would like to serve our readers in Lebanon every day that we publish," Ignatius said in a telephone interview.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2002 2:44 pm  
To:  ALL   (54 of 61)  
 
  369.54 in reply to 369.20  
 
SUBJECT:  HISTORICAL ACCURACY 

The Prime Minister of Israel sits down with Arafat at the beginning of 
negotiations regarding the resolution of the conflict. 

The Prime Minister requests that he be allowed to begin with a story. 

Arafat replies, "Of course." 

The Prime Minister begins his story: 

"Years before the Israelites came to the Promised Land and settled here, 
Moses led them for 40 years through the desert.  The Israelites began 
complaining that they were thirsty and, lo and behold, a miracle occurred 
and a stream appeared before them. 

They drank their fill and then decided to take advantage of the stream to do 
some bathing -- including Moses. 

When Moses came out of the water, he found that all his clothing was 
missing. 

"Who took my clothes?" Moses asked those around him. 

"It was the Palestinians," replied the Israelites--" 

"Wait a minute," objected Arafat immediately, "there were no Palestinians 
during the time of Moses!" 

"Of course," replies the Prime Minister, "Now that we've got that settled, 
let's begin our negotiations." 

GREG CLEMENTS/Los Angeles 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/11/2002 7:18 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (55 of 61)  
 
  369.55 in reply to 369.47  
 
Hi, 
I realize I'm responding to an older post, but I wanted to say thanks for the info you gave. It is incredible.

Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    7/11/2002 8:33 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (56 of 61)  
 
  369.56 in reply to 369.55  
 
You are welcome :) 
It's a subject I'm pretty passionate about :) 

Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/11/2002 11:01 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (57 of 61)  
 
  369.57 in reply to 369.56  
 
I can tell. :) All the info you provide makes me want to learn more and more... 
God bless you. ;)

Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/7/2002 6:32 pm  
To:  ALL   (58 of 61)  
 
  369.58 in reply to 369.57  
 
Source www.JPost.com
Sep. 6, 2002
Mega-attack averted
By DAVID RUDGE

Two border policemen and four Border Police volunteers thwarted a mega-terror attack early Thursday when they intercepted two vehicles between Wadi Ara and Givat Ada, one of them packed with some 600 kilograms of explosives, two containers of fuel, and metal objects designed to maximize casualties. 

Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said the security forces had prevented a catastrophe. "If, God forbid, this had happened, it would have caused such a loss of life it would have changed almost the entire political situation in one moment," he told reporters. 

The four volunteers and two border policemen yesterday were awarded certificates of commendation by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in the presence of Israel Police Insp.-Gen. Shlomo Aharonishky, Internal Security Minister Uzi Landau, and Northern District police chief Cmdr. Ya'acov Borovsky. 

It was not clear where the terrorists had intended to detonate the huge car bomb. The fact that it was prevented because of the presence of a mobile roadblock on a dirt track leading from the West Bank into Israel highlighted the element of good fortune and the volunteer spirit that is pervading the country, according to Landau. He noted that thousands of people have volunteered their services to help the security forces in various ways since the outbreak of Palestinian violence two years ago. 

In an interview with Israel Radio, he cited this as an example of the indomitable will of Israelis in the face of a war thrust upon them by a sometimes faceless terrorist enemy. 

Furthermore, he said, voluntarism contradicts the view of Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah and heads of other terrorist groups that the Israeli people can be broken by terrorism and violence. 

The incident occurred around 1:30 a.m. when members of a Border Police unit and volunteers spotted a van and a car speeding toward their roadblock. St.-Sgt. Maj. Michel Bar-Sheshet said they had established the roadblock on a dirt track between Kafr Kara and Givat Ada, east of Hadera and Zichron Ya'acov and inside the Green Line. 

"We spotted two vehicles coming from the direction of Kafr Kara. We waited for them to come toward us and then directed them with a flashlight to stop," Bar-Sheshet told reporters. "When they saw us, they speeded up and we immediately gave chase, and saw that the vehicles had been abandoned after about 400 meters." 

The terrorists fled on foot, evading security roadblocks and searches. 

He said a computer check revealed the vehicles had been stolen, raising the suspicion of terrorist involvement. It is believed the car was to have been used as a getaway vehicle for the terrorists. 

"I called for a sapper, and what he saw in the van suspicious objects which I had seen made him call for reinforcements, because it appeared to be a car bomb," he said. 

A cellphone was fitted to the device, indicating that the perpetrators had intended to detonate it by remote control. There was also a video camera in the car, implying that the terrorists had planned to film the results of the attack. 

The entire area was sealed off and the car bomb was destroyed in a controlled explosion. The van was blown to pieces, and debris was scattered over a wide area. Security experts said the amount of explosives would have brought down a skyscraper or blown apart a shopping mall or other crowded area, causing hundreds of casualties. 

"I don't want to imagine what could have happened if this car bomb had found its way to a city or populated area," Borovsky told reporters. 

"This is another opportunity to say how vital the activities of volunteers and the full cooperation between citizens and the member of the police are," he said. "For those who are sometimes cynical about the importance, this was clear evidence that the presence of another pair of eyes succeeded in thwarting an extremely powerful terror attack."

  1995-2002, The Jerusalem Post - All rights reserved



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 9/7/2002 9:35:18 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/7/2002 10:47 am  
To:  ALL   (59 of 61)  
 
  369.59 in reply to 369.58  
 
Source: www.jpost.com

VATICAN CITY The Vatican is giving $400,000 to Roman Catholic causes in Israel and the West Bank to try to improve life for Christians there and persuade them not to flee the ongoing fighting.

Archbishop Paul Josef Cordes, head of Cor Unum, the Vatican's charity arm, will deliver the money and an appeal for Christians to remain in the region during a November 7-10 visit, the Vatican said Wednesday.

A statement from Cor Unum noted that religious tourism to the region had fallen precipitously in the past two years of fighting, particularly after a standoff earlier this year between IDF troops and Palestinians holed up in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem.

"It's understandable why there is a desire among many to leave the country," the statement said. "The safekeeping of holy sites, however, would be seriously put in danger if Christians abandoned them."

Cordes will deliver the $400,000, as well as an appeal from Pope John Paul II to "encourage Christians to remain in these tortured places, like so many missionaries already are doing in heroic fashion," the statement said.

The money will be divided among the Jerusalem Patriarchate, the Franciscan order, Caritas, and various Catholic communities in the region.

"The support is offered to improve the condition of life and work in their lands, to be a fertile seed of humanity and peace," the statement said.

The $400,000 was collected in an appeal launched by John Paul after the September 11 attacks to help comfort victims of war and terrorism.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/9/2002 12:40 pm  
To:  ALL   (60 of 61)  
 
  369.60 in reply to 369.1  
 
Source: Jerusalem Post www.JPost.com

Nov. 9, 2002
Lebanese Christian official leaves jail after serving sentence for contacts with Israel
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BEIRUT, Lebanon - A senior official of an outlawed Lebanese Christian group was released from prison Saturday after serving a 15-month sentence on charges of collaborating with Israel.

Toufic Hindy of the banned Lebanese Forces militia was picked up from prison in the Beirut suburb of Roumieh by his wife and two children. Hindy, who was wearing a suit and a tie, drove his own car to his home in the Lebanese capital Beirut.

"Today is a day of celebration and indescribable happiness," Hindy's wife, Claude, told The Associated Press from her home after her husband's release. "Thank God the family is reunited."

A military court in March convicted Hindy of contacting Israel and meeting Israeli officials - crimes punishable by death in Lebanon - and sentenced him to three years imprisonment.

Lebanon and Israel are technically at war, and the Jewish state is considered an enemy under Lebanese law.

Hindy has denied ever visiting Israel or meeting Israeli officials abroad. Government critics have claimed the arrest of Hindy and two colleagues were politically motivated.

The Lebanese Forces was banned in 1994, and its leader Samir Geagea has been in jail since for killing political enemies. Hindy was Geagea's political adviser.

Arrested at the same time as Hindy were journalists Habib Younis, an editor at the Beirut bureau of the London-based Al Hayat newspaper, and Antoine Bassil, who worked for a pro-Israeli television station during the Israel occupation of south Lebanon that ended in 2000.

All three were charged with contacting Israel, meeting Israeli officials and harming Lebanon's relations with Syria, which maintains about 25,000 troops in Lebanon and controls Lebanese political decision-making.

The three were arrested in August 2001 in a sweep by Lebanese security forces that netted some 250 anti-Syrian activists, most of whom were subsequently released.

On July 11, a military appeals court commuted Hindy and Younis' three-year prison terms to 15 months, including time served before trial, and Younes is to be released next week. Bassil's four-year term was cut to 2 1/2 years.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/10/2002 4:41 pm  
To:  ALL   (61 of 61)  
 
  369.61 in reply to 369.1  
 
Source: www.JPost.com
Nov. 11, 2002
Iyad Sawalha the story of a killer
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

I first met Iyad Sawalha in 1989 under an olive tree on the outskirts of Kafr Rai, a small village southwest of Jenin. The tall, green-eyed Sawalha had just joined the Black Panther, an offshoot of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.

Special Golani forces killed Sawalha early Saturday morning in the Jenin casbah, where he was hiding behind a double wall in his kitchen. The IDF said Sawalha was responsible for the deaths of 31 Israelis, including the October 21 attack on an Egged bus at Karkur junction which left 14 dead and 48 wounded. Yet his record of violence long predates the present conflict.

Even before he finished school, Sawalha earned the admiration of many of his classmates for confronting IDF soldiers with stones each time they entered the village.

Villagers then described him as the most handsome man and said local girls were "crazy about him." Armed with a pistol and what looked like a rusty rifle dating back to the British Mandate, the 19-year-old Panther described how he had just killed a mukhtar (headman) of a nearby village on suspicion of collaboration with Israel. This was his test of admission into the Black Panther and he had passed it successfully.

"I knocked on the door and when he opened it, I strangled him to death with my own hands," he said with a smile. "He was about 70 years old and it wasn't a problem to kill him. He deserved to die because he was a traitor."

The Black Panther was especially active in the northern West Bank. Its members consisted mainly of young Fatah activists and former security prisoners. The group, which included several dozen members, was behind some of the most gruesome killings of suspected collaborators.

A few weeks after the first test Sawalha was once again asked to prove his loyalty. This time he chose two residents of his own village. He forced the two, at gunpoint, to march to the main village square where he shot them to death in front of a large crowd.

"I'm not afraid of the Jews," Sawalha told me at one stage. "They have occupied our homeland and they must leave. Until then, we will kill them wherever we find them. Our group is a military organization, and we receive our instructions from the PLO and Fatah in Tunis."

Asked about the killing of suspected collaborators, Sawalha said: "Because we don't have a state with a police force and courts, we are forced to take the law into our hands. These people have caused a lot of harm to the Palestinian people. Some of those I killed have confessed to working for the Shin Bet."

Altogether, the Black Panther was responsible for the killing of more than 40 Palestinians in the Jenin area alone. The killings took place between 1987, the year the first intifada broke out, and 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed.

Fear of the Black Panther led many families to flee their homes and seek refuge elsewhere in the West Bank and inside the Green Line. The situation became so dangerous that the IDF established Fahma, a special village for the collaborators and their families south of Jenin. Soldiers who had their own base at the entrance guarded the new refugees.

Fahma was located near Kafr Rai. From the hilltops, Sawalha and his friends had a clear view of the people they so much wanted to lay their hands on.

The IDF waged an unrelenting war against Sawalha and other Black Panther gunmen. Most of them, including the group's leader, Abu Awad, were either killed or wounded in IDF raids and ambushes.

The IDF raided Sawalha's home several times in an attempt to arrest him, but he always managed to escape. He was finally arrested in 1991 by an undercover IDF unit.

A military court sentenced him to life in prison for his role in killing four Palestinians.
Sawalha went into prison as a secular man and came out in 1999 as a member of Islamic Jihad. Shortly after his release, he told me he had decided to lead a normal life and work at a moneychanger's shop in Jenin. But he was unable to resist the temptation when the second intifada erupted, and within a short time he was again in the business, this time with Islamic Jihad.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
